No matter how you spin it or reference other countries teams. The reality is the average observer or kid at an air show , will always find jets “cooler” than prop planes. People play video games and see top gun etc.
This is a clear downgrade…yes it’s not an operational thing…but because the snowbirds are about national pride and recruitment and moral and optics etc…well then the superficial optics of stepping down from jets, is always going to be a poor choice.
Of course we can’t and shouldn’t do frontline tactical jets for snowbirds like America does with its teams. …we can’t even keep a single CF-18 demo going anymore. And of course the other countries flying prop plane teams are skilled and look good. But we were perfectly situated in the middle. And in the era of massive spending increases for the military…it would be easy to sell new jet trainers to the public as a good and small and uncontroversial investment to make.
In the face of geopolitical events where optics and image and PR matter almost more then substance…well this move to props will fuel memes and bad vibes for maple MAGA and actual MAGA down south.
Agreed. With 19 PC-21s replacing 190 Tutors it is a safe bet that only a small number of the jet lead in trainers will be purchased whenever it might happen, which in my mind means, should the Snowbirds return the team size will be reduced due to operating costs? Sad possibility.
Great points. I would add two additional thoughts, if I may? First, the Canadian Airforce no longer has a jet lead in training aircraft before pilots fly a higher performance frontline aircraft…whenever we get one. Maybe that is McGinty’s point, we aren’t getting new fighters? Second point, the only credible air demonstration team THAT I AM AWARE of that does not use jets is the RAAF in Australia. They also use the Polaris PC-21…in a six plane formation vs the Snowbirds once unique 9 plane team.
The Brazilian AF team uses the Super Tucano but that's the only other team I could find using turboprops. They use a 7 plane formation and put on a pretty good show from the video I watched. But still, it feels slow to me....
Hi Peter, Thanks for the info. I had overlooked them, but do you feel they can be put in the same class as the Snowbirds, Red Arrows et al? I also enjoy teams using training aircraft rather than frontline fighters? You?
We were spoiled by the Tutor. It was the perfect show aircraft. Cheap to operate (at first at least), simple to maintain (at first at least 😉), easy to fly and with enough speed to create great shows (and you couldn't beat that iconic opening with the nine twinkling lights). Unfortunately that also made it difficult to replace which is why it soldered on probably way past it's prime.
I'm disappointed because I feel the government waited too long and then when push came to shove, took the easy way out. I feel the Siskin is too slow to make a good show aircraft...you need a certain amount of speed so that repositioning maneuvers don't take too long.
I'm going to check out videos of some of the teams already using these aircraft and maybe I'll be proven wrong...but I'm not hopeful. 😢
Respectfully it was and is not difficult to replace. Plenty of jet trainers have been available for the past 25 years. Buying a dozen (and some spares) should not be a big deal or difficult or even remotely controversial….they are “not weapons of war” for the more pacifist types who still like seeing them fly over parliament hill on July 1st.
I was always expecting that they would transfer the Hawks over to the Snowbirds but that never happened. Too much time on the airframes I guess....🤷♂️
I would agree with your comments save one point. The Liberals were not dragging their feet on replacing the Tutor…this announcement is part of their longer term globalist plan.
19 PC-21s will replace 190 Tutors. I believe the only other credible military air demonstration team using the PC-21 is the Aussie Airforce.
When thinking about Canadian symbols, it is important to remember that Trudeau declared Canada to be a post-national state, without core values, Trudeau is a globalist. Carney is also a globalists and is at least as bad as his predecessor. Carney works on behalf of his fellow globalists so removing symbols of a once proud Canada will continue to be removed. Gone are statues and place names of important political and heritage personages. Gone and still going is a once proud military and a rich foundational history earned in blood. Gone is our sterling world reputation. Gone is Canadian unity and pride. In the process of being cancelled are an Afghanistan war memorial and the iconic Snowbirds. The Snowbirds are being paused until 2030? Bullshit, they are gone until such time as Liberals are out of office. MND McGinty says it is a pause until new aircraft are purchased. The fleet size for the new Polaris PC-21 that is replacing the Tutor is 19 aircraft…19 aircraft replacing an original purchase of 190 Tutors. Paused, my ass, they are done!
Thank you for your kind remarks. A polite conversation involves at least two people demonstrating respect from opposite or perhaps misaligned points of view? I appreciate your input for its informative and equally respectful observations.
What I find startling about the current Liberal efforts as I stated them is the pace and unabashed clarity of their actions. As a veteran I would be no less aggrieved were this a Conservative decision, however the closest I can come to feeling betrayed by a Conservative government’s actions in the vain of history, tradition, or symbols is the cancellation of the Arrow. Not even close really?
My stance would also be less staunch had the government held off on putting the team on hiatus until 2030 when the Tutor’s air worthiness certificate expires. Alternatively, if they had not recently spent millions recertifying the Tutor until 2030 it would be logical to even ax the program due to increasing operating/maintenance costs? I guess in the grand scheme of things it is how the entire public relations aspect comes across as bungled and disrespectful?
We can certainly agree on the tragedy of the Arrow. I have read extensively on same and it will be a perpetual reminder of excellence, the dream and the destruction of Canadian innovation. Followed by decades of licenced production of American fighters.
I agree the termination of Snowbirds ops makes no sense, given the recent updates. Yes, keep No.431 happy until 2030. And thanks for your service to Canada.
It is worth noting that there wasn’t a single competitor to come close to the Arrow in any aspect.
Were Carney to follow through on his words to rebuild the country’s military and be able to produce a Canadian built fighter half as significant as the Arrow, before i pass on, I would be grateful and obliged to reconsider my opinion of him and his government.
Thank you for your accurate analysis of the regression of Canada’s military. Rightfully, but interesting no less, you have passed over comments wrt Mulroney and Chrétien. I agree with the reality that both federal parties have contributed to the hollowing out our military. The point I am making goes beyond the military. I am very concerned that the Liberals in particular are systematically erasing Canada’s history and symbols once proudly earned and publicly displayed. I respect your observations and comments, but stand by my remarks as well.
Yes, I was eager to conclude and Chretien and Mulroney were not included simply because of my time constraint. I share your concern about the erosion of Canadian symbols and history. As to who specifically could be blamed is a matter of friendly disagreement.
I do appreciate your very polite discourse and this kind of engagement can improve things in this country.
My reply was in reference to your comments of the Liberals. All political parties since the sixties have been responsible for the decline and painful procurement process and timelines for the Canadian Forces. So we had Pierre Trudeau maintaining 2% GDP or a little less depending on the metric. Advance to Stephen Harper who, good for him because he had no choice, sole sourced purchases to bolster the Forces in Afghanistan. When Harper left the scene, defence expenditures under his authority was 0.9% the lowest in modern history.
So the upsides of each:
Pierre Trudeau - defence review and purchase of CF18
Stephen Harper - required purchases due to absence of same. And the NSS, starting in 2011 and accelerating in 2015
Justin Trudeau - raised defence GDP from 0.9% to 1.4%
Obviously I have not cited John Chretien and Brian Mulroney. Chretien’s cancellation of the EH101 was a $500 million blunder settling eventually on the orphan class and problematic CH148.
The downsides are too numerous to mention…
But at the end of the day the primary people to blame for defence expenditures are YOU and ME for not demanding better for the Forces.
What a horrible choice.
No matter how you spin it or reference other countries teams. The reality is the average observer or kid at an air show , will always find jets “cooler” than prop planes. People play video games and see top gun etc.
This is a clear downgrade…yes it’s not an operational thing…but because the snowbirds are about national pride and recruitment and moral and optics etc…well then the superficial optics of stepping down from jets, is always going to be a poor choice.
Of course we can’t and shouldn’t do frontline tactical jets for snowbirds like America does with its teams. …we can’t even keep a single CF-18 demo going anymore. And of course the other countries flying prop plane teams are skilled and look good. But we were perfectly situated in the middle. And in the era of massive spending increases for the military…it would be easy to sell new jet trainers to the public as a good and small and uncontroversial investment to make.
In the face of geopolitical events where optics and image and PR matter almost more then substance…well this move to props will fuel memes and bad vibes for maple MAGA and actual MAGA down south.
I don't even think F16s/F18s make good show aircraft. They can wow you with speed and noise but that's about it.
M-346 checks a lot of boxes.
Agreed. With 19 PC-21s replacing 190 Tutors it is a safe bet that only a small number of the jet lead in trainers will be purchased whenever it might happen, which in my mind means, should the Snowbirds return the team size will be reduced due to operating costs? Sad possibility.
Great points. I would add two additional thoughts, if I may? First, the Canadian Airforce no longer has a jet lead in training aircraft before pilots fly a higher performance frontline aircraft…whenever we get one. Maybe that is McGinty’s point, we aren’t getting new fighters? Second point, the only credible air demonstration team THAT I AM AWARE of that does not use jets is the RAAF in Australia. They also use the Polaris PC-21…in a six plane formation vs the Snowbirds once unique 9 plane team.
The Brazilian AF team uses the Super Tucano but that's the only other team I could find using turboprops. They use a 7 plane formation and put on a pretty good show from the video I watched. But still, it feels slow to me....
Hi Peter, Thanks for the info. I had overlooked them, but do you feel they can be put in the same class as the Snowbirds, Red Arrows et al? I also enjoy teams using training aircraft rather than frontline fighters? You?
I would say both the RAAF and Brazilian teams are a notch below the Snowbirds/Red Arrows teams. Just not quite as crisp from what I could see.
I think it's still possible we will get a high-end jet trainer like the M-346 to round-out pilot training, but sadly not for the Snowbirds.
Again Pilatus, NOT Polaris.
We were spoiled by the Tutor. It was the perfect show aircraft. Cheap to operate (at first at least), simple to maintain (at first at least 😉), easy to fly and with enough speed to create great shows (and you couldn't beat that iconic opening with the nine twinkling lights). Unfortunately that also made it difficult to replace which is why it soldered on probably way past it's prime.
I'm disappointed because I feel the government waited too long and then when push came to shove, took the easy way out. I feel the Siskin is too slow to make a good show aircraft...you need a certain amount of speed so that repositioning maneuvers don't take too long.
I'm going to check out videos of some of the teams already using these aircraft and maybe I'll be proven wrong...but I'm not hopeful. 😢
Respectfully it was and is not difficult to replace. Plenty of jet trainers have been available for the past 25 years. Buying a dozen (and some spares) should not be a big deal or difficult or even remotely controversial….they are “not weapons of war” for the more pacifist types who still like seeing them fly over parliament hill on July 1st.
I was always expecting that they would transfer the Hawks over to the Snowbirds but that never happened. Too much time on the airframes I guess....🤷♂️
I would agree with your comments save one point. The Liberals were not dragging their feet on replacing the Tutor…this announcement is part of their longer term globalist plan.
19 PC-21s will replace 190 Tutors. I believe the only other credible military air demonstration team using the PC-21 is the Aussie Airforce.
What is wrong with being global?
New Zealand, Thailand, Israel, Indonesia, Croatia, Poland, Switzerland, Australia, South Africa, Ireland, and Brazil , Morocco, Chile and Jordan
Just a list of some other countries using props
When thinking about Canadian symbols, it is important to remember that Trudeau declared Canada to be a post-national state, without core values, Trudeau is a globalist. Carney is also a globalists and is at least as bad as his predecessor. Carney works on behalf of his fellow globalists so removing symbols of a once proud Canada will continue to be removed. Gone are statues and place names of important political and heritage personages. Gone and still going is a once proud military and a rich foundational history earned in blood. Gone is our sterling world reputation. Gone is Canadian unity and pride. In the process of being cancelled are an Afghanistan war memorial and the iconic Snowbirds. The Snowbirds are being paused until 2030? Bullshit, they are gone until such time as Liberals are out of office. MND McGinty says it is a pause until new aircraft are purchased. The fleet size for the new Polaris PC-21 that is replacing the Tutor is 19 aircraft…19 aircraft replacing an original purchase of 190 Tutors. Paused, my ass, they are done!
Scott,
Thank you for your kind remarks. A polite conversation involves at least two people demonstrating respect from opposite or perhaps misaligned points of view? I appreciate your input for its informative and equally respectful observations.
What I find startling about the current Liberal efforts as I stated them is the pace and unabashed clarity of their actions. As a veteran I would be no less aggrieved were this a Conservative decision, however the closest I can come to feeling betrayed by a Conservative government’s actions in the vain of history, tradition, or symbols is the cancellation of the Arrow. Not even close really?
My stance would also be less staunch had the government held off on putting the team on hiatus until 2030 when the Tutor’s air worthiness certificate expires. Alternatively, if they had not recently spent millions recertifying the Tutor until 2030 it would be logical to even ax the program due to increasing operating/maintenance costs? I guess in the grand scheme of things it is how the entire public relations aspect comes across as bungled and disrespectful?
We can certainly agree on the tragedy of the Arrow. I have read extensively on same and it will be a perpetual reminder of excellence, the dream and the destruction of Canadian innovation. Followed by decades of licenced production of American fighters.
I agree the termination of Snowbirds ops makes no sense, given the recent updates. Yes, keep No.431 happy until 2030. And thanks for your service to Canada.
I’m sure we will communicate again on TNSR!
It is worth noting that there wasn’t a single competitor to come close to the Arrow in any aspect.
Were Carney to follow through on his words to rebuild the country’s military and be able to produce a Canadian built fighter half as significant as the Arrow, before i pass on, I would be grateful and obliged to reconsider my opinion of him and his government.
Thank you for your accurate analysis of the regression of Canada’s military. Rightfully, but interesting no less, you have passed over comments wrt Mulroney and Chrétien. I agree with the reality that both federal parties have contributed to the hollowing out our military. The point I am making goes beyond the military. I am very concerned that the Liberals in particular are systematically erasing Canada’s history and symbols once proudly earned and publicly displayed. I respect your observations and comments, but stand by my remarks as well.
Yes, I was eager to conclude and Chretien and Mulroney were not included simply because of my time constraint. I share your concern about the erosion of Canadian symbols and history. As to who specifically could be blamed is a matter of friendly disagreement.
I do appreciate your very polite discourse and this kind of engagement can improve things in this country.
With all due respect, the Snowbirds and Tutor retirement are headlines. The underlying story is as bigger.
My reply was in reference to your comments of the Liberals. All political parties since the sixties have been responsible for the decline and painful procurement process and timelines for the Canadian Forces. So we had Pierre Trudeau maintaining 2% GDP or a little less depending on the metric. Advance to Stephen Harper who, good for him because he had no choice, sole sourced purchases to bolster the Forces in Afghanistan. When Harper left the scene, defence expenditures under his authority was 0.9% the lowest in modern history.
So the upsides of each:
Pierre Trudeau - defence review and purchase of CF18
Stephen Harper - required purchases due to absence of same. And the NSS, starting in 2011 and accelerating in 2015
Justin Trudeau - raised defence GDP from 0.9% to 1.4%
Obviously I have not cited John Chretien and Brian Mulroney. Chretien’s cancellation of the EH101 was a $500 million blunder settling eventually on the orphan class and problematic CH148.
The downsides are too numerous to mention…
But at the end of the day the primary people to blame for defence expenditures are YOU and ME for not demanding better for the Forces.
Christ! I thought the subject matter was the Snowbirds and the retirement of the Tutor.
Correction…Pilatus PC-21 not Polaris.