Not to mention that's quite a few pilots and maintainers tied up on what amounts to public relations duties at a time the air force is getting quite a few new airplanes. I appreciate the Snowbirds as an airshow act, but they don't make a contribution to operational capability.
Think of what we’ve shelved over the recent past. The CL-89/289, (our very original indigenous UAV), our fleet of Tribal class destroyers, then our 2 ship fleet of AORs and recently the Kingston class MCDVs, fundamental combat capability allowed to rust away. So while the Snowbirds have an emotional tug for many, it’s role is tertiary and it hasn’t exactly affected our recruiting goals, one of the offsets expected from the Snowbirds investment (as good as the pilots are, show casing an ancient training aircraft as one of your most expensive recruiting investments hasn’t been inspiring). I’ve said before, while the Gripen is not the jet to carry the RCAF forward to 2050-60 as a front line fighter, the Gripen could be a good replacement for the Snowbirds, as well as other advanced training and adversary roles.
One tends to gawk in awe at flashy fighters but the Tutor trained many, many proficient pilots and safely. The aircraft is a testament to Canadian ingenuity and Canadair.
Once retired from service, she definitely deserves a place of honour.
Sure, and it's worth remembering that only Snowbird pilots have been trained on the airplane for the last 26 years. Heck... We've already retired the Hawks we used to replace the Tutor
While standing down for a few years sounds like the safest and wise choice to make. I also fear that after not having Snowbirds for say 5 or so years…well a lot of Canadians, new ones, younger generations etc are just not going to miss them all that much ….and after another election cycle …well it would be easy for cancelling the replacement plan entirely as the first thing to go when the economy is not great and while defence is getting way more expensive etc
Agree with you. They should have been retired some time ago and I say that as someone who worked at Canadair and whose father and grandfather did too. I was always proud that the Snowbirds flew "our" planes. What politicians and the public don't realize is that it's not just the age of the plane that's an issue, it's the hours taking off and landing and flying that fatigues the structure. Not to mention all the Gs they pull. Airplane structures all have a lifespan. Add to that the lack of spare parts and eventually it gets impossible to maintain them. Maintenance has already done a great job with the Snowbirds but they are over 60 years old! I love them, but it's time to say good-bye. We can still visit one at Canada's Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa - they acquired a Snowbird in 1999.
I wholeheartedly agree. They are old and a danger. I love them, but they are well past their prime. My husband traveled with them when he was PA for the CF18 three years in a row. Keeping them going considering the time, expense, frustration and danger of the old birds just doesn't fly.
Well, I just want to say, Fraser Tolme is my MP, and he goes to my church, and I have been fairly disappointed by him. I thought he did a fairly good job as our mayor, but he has been loud and blustery since being elected MP, and is kind of an embarrassment. He started off on the wrong foot by joining the freedom convoy to Ottawa very early, making a lot of noise, signifying nothing.
Bah.
All that to say, him raising a stink about it in parliament sounds like another nothing burger. Posturing to appeal to a certain subsection of his base, without engaging in the real issue. He isn't worried about loosing a Canadian icon, he is worried that when they get stood up again in a couple years with new planes, it might not be in Moose Jaw, and Moose Javians (yeah, we actually call ourselves that...) might be upset he didn't do more to prevent it. And, to be fair, there is a real risk of that. If the current snowbirds got new planes, even if they are tied to the new jet trainers, it's conceivable that tradition and the massive branded hangers at 15 wing Moose Jaw might keep them here. But they are shuffling around training programs, the grobes are coming to moose jaw from portage, the hawks are beinf scrapped (and wasn't that a boondoggle), so its entirely possible that FFLIT will go somewhere else. If the snow birds are flying, and FFLIT goes elsewhere, and the snowbirds transition to whatever FFLIT ends up flying, then it would only make sense that the snowbirds base would follow... A lot of ifs, but I bet thats where this is coming from.
Personally, I would LOVE to see the snowbirds in Gripens, that would be a step up on so many levels... But regardless of what they end up flying, I want them to be safe in the meantime. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that any publicity is good publicity, and I don't want anymore deaths associated with the snowbirds. Which is probably why I take such exception to Tolme raising a stink about (Moose Jaw) loosing the snowbirds. Because he has jumped to the conclusion that there isn't any reason that could be good enough to cancel or pause the program.
I also recall not too long ago….like a decade or maybe 15 year ish. There was a standard budget political move where DND said we have to stand down the snowbirds in order to meet whatever budget squeeze was being imposed on them….it was largely done as a way of winning the PR battle when tons of Canadians and liberal voters especially where shocked and outraged…and then they found the money. Maybe it’s finally time the public sees the consequences of being proud at having a tiny military. But also I fear the average Canadian in 5 years won’t care enough about bringing back the snowbirds to make it happen…..too many new Canadians who they are not important too and too many younger Canadians who are staring at tik tok etc and don’t look up or go to air shows
In earlier posts Noah mentioned that the KAI TF-50 was one of the contenders for the FFLIT program. Interestingly KAI makes a variant of of the TF-50, the T-50B which is solely dedicated to the acrobatic role. Buy the TF-50/T-50B and you kill two birds with one stone!
Actually you could kill three birds. The TF-50 also comes in a dedicated strike variant, the FA-50. Get enough FA-50s and wouldn't need the Grippen.
Well, I just want to say, Fraser Tolme is my MP, and he goes to my church, and I have been fairly disappointed by him. I thought he did a fairly good job as our mayor, but he has been loud and blustery since being elected MP, and is kind of an embarrassment. He started off on the wrong foot by joining the freedom convoy to Ottawa very early, making a lot of noise, signifying nothing.
Bah.
All that to say, him raising a stink about it in parliament sounds like another nothing burger. Posturing to appeal to a certain subsection of his base, without engaging in the real issue. He isn't worried about loosing a Canadian icon, he is worried that when they get stood up again in a couple years with new planes, it might not be in Moose Jaw, and Moose Javians (yeah, we actually call ourselves that...) might be upset he didn't do more to prevent it. And, to be fair, there is a real risk of that. If the current snowbirds got new planes, even if they are tied to the new jet trainers, it's conceivable that tradition and the massive branded hangers at 15 wing Moose Jaw might keep them here. But they are shuffling around training programs, the grobes are coming to moose jaw from portage, the hawks are beinf scrapped (and wasn't that a boondoggle), so its entirely possible that FFLIT will go somewhere else. If the snow birds are flying, and FFLIT goes elsewhere, and the snowbirds transition to whatever FFLIT ends up flying, then it would only make sense that the snowbirds base would follow... A lot of ifs, but I bet thats where this is coming from.
Personally, I would LOVE to see the snowbirds in Gripens, that would be a step up on so many levels... But regardless of what they end up flying, I want them to be safe in the meantime. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that any publicity is good publicity, and I don't want anymore deaths associated with the snowbirds. Which is probably why I take such exception to Tolme raising a stink about (Moose Jaw) loosing the snowbirds. Because he has jumped to the conclusion that there isn't any reason that could be good enough to cancel or pause the program.
Not to mention that's quite a few pilots and maintainers tied up on what amounts to public relations duties at a time the air force is getting quite a few new airplanes. I appreciate the Snowbirds as an airshow act, but they don't make a contribution to operational capability.
Think of what we’ve shelved over the recent past. The CL-89/289, (our very original indigenous UAV), our fleet of Tribal class destroyers, then our 2 ship fleet of AORs and recently the Kingston class MCDVs, fundamental combat capability allowed to rust away. So while the Snowbirds have an emotional tug for many, it’s role is tertiary and it hasn’t exactly affected our recruiting goals, one of the offsets expected from the Snowbirds investment (as good as the pilots are, show casing an ancient training aircraft as one of your most expensive recruiting investments hasn’t been inspiring). I’ve said before, while the Gripen is not the jet to carry the RCAF forward to 2050-60 as a front line fighter, the Gripen could be a good replacement for the Snowbirds, as well as other advanced training and adversary roles.
One tends to gawk in awe at flashy fighters but the Tutor trained many, many proficient pilots and safely. The aircraft is a testament to Canadian ingenuity and Canadair.
Once retired from service, she definitely deserves a place of honour.
Sure, and it's worth remembering that only Snowbird pilots have been trained on the airplane for the last 26 years. Heck... We've already retired the Hawks we used to replace the Tutor
Yes, all known. A great aircraft none the less.
A great aircraft at the end of its life.
While standing down for a few years sounds like the safest and wise choice to make. I also fear that after not having Snowbirds for say 5 or so years…well a lot of Canadians, new ones, younger generations etc are just not going to miss them all that much ….and after another election cycle …well it would be easy for cancelling the replacement plan entirely as the first thing to go when the economy is not great and while defence is getting way more expensive etc
Agree with you. They should have been retired some time ago and I say that as someone who worked at Canadair and whose father and grandfather did too. I was always proud that the Snowbirds flew "our" planes. What politicians and the public don't realize is that it's not just the age of the plane that's an issue, it's the hours taking off and landing and flying that fatigues the structure. Not to mention all the Gs they pull. Airplane structures all have a lifespan. Add to that the lack of spare parts and eventually it gets impossible to maintain them. Maintenance has already done a great job with the Snowbirds but they are over 60 years old! I love them, but it's time to say good-bye. We can still visit one at Canada's Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa - they acquired a Snowbird in 1999.
I wholeheartedly agree. They are old and a danger. I love them, but they are well past their prime. My husband traveled with them when he was PA for the CF18 three years in a row. Keeping them going considering the time, expense, frustration and danger of the old birds just doesn't fly.
Well, I just want to say, Fraser Tolme is my MP, and he goes to my church, and I have been fairly disappointed by him. I thought he did a fairly good job as our mayor, but he has been loud and blustery since being elected MP, and is kind of an embarrassment. He started off on the wrong foot by joining the freedom convoy to Ottawa very early, making a lot of noise, signifying nothing.
Bah.
All that to say, him raising a stink about it in parliament sounds like another nothing burger. Posturing to appeal to a certain subsection of his base, without engaging in the real issue. He isn't worried about loosing a Canadian icon, he is worried that when they get stood up again in a couple years with new planes, it might not be in Moose Jaw, and Moose Javians (yeah, we actually call ourselves that...) might be upset he didn't do more to prevent it. And, to be fair, there is a real risk of that. If the current snowbirds got new planes, even if they are tied to the new jet trainers, it's conceivable that tradition and the massive branded hangers at 15 wing Moose Jaw might keep them here. But they are shuffling around training programs, the grobes are coming to moose jaw from portage, the hawks are beinf scrapped (and wasn't that a boondoggle), so its entirely possible that FFLIT will go somewhere else. If the snow birds are flying, and FFLIT goes elsewhere, and the snowbirds transition to whatever FFLIT ends up flying, then it would only make sense that the snowbirds base would follow... A lot of ifs, but I bet thats where this is coming from.
Personally, I would LOVE to see the snowbirds in Gripens, that would be a step up on so many levels... But regardless of what they end up flying, I want them to be safe in the meantime. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that any publicity is good publicity, and I don't want anymore deaths associated with the snowbirds. Which is probably why I take such exception to Tolme raising a stink about (Moose Jaw) loosing the snowbirds. Because he has jumped to the conclusion that there isn't any reason that could be good enough to cancel or pause the program.
I also recall not too long ago….like a decade or maybe 15 year ish. There was a standard budget political move where DND said we have to stand down the snowbirds in order to meet whatever budget squeeze was being imposed on them….it was largely done as a way of winning the PR battle when tons of Canadians and liberal voters especially where shocked and outraged…and then they found the money. Maybe it’s finally time the public sees the consequences of being proud at having a tiny military. But also I fear the average Canadian in 5 years won’t care enough about bringing back the snowbirds to make it happen…..too many new Canadians who they are not important too and too many younger Canadians who are staring at tik tok etc and don’t look up or go to air shows
In earlier posts Noah mentioned that the KAI TF-50 was one of the contenders for the FFLIT program. Interestingly KAI makes a variant of of the TF-50, the T-50B which is solely dedicated to the acrobatic role. Buy the TF-50/T-50B and you kill two birds with one stone!
Actually you could kill three birds. The TF-50 also comes in a dedicated strike variant, the FA-50. Get enough FA-50s and wouldn't need the Grippen.
Well, I just want to say, Fraser Tolme is my MP, and he goes to my church, and I have been fairly disappointed by him. I thought he did a fairly good job as our mayor, but he has been loud and blustery since being elected MP, and is kind of an embarrassment. He started off on the wrong foot by joining the freedom convoy to Ottawa very early, making a lot of noise, signifying nothing.
Bah.
All that to say, him raising a stink about it in parliament sounds like another nothing burger. Posturing to appeal to a certain subsection of his base, without engaging in the real issue. He isn't worried about loosing a Canadian icon, he is worried that when they get stood up again in a couple years with new planes, it might not be in Moose Jaw, and Moose Javians (yeah, we actually call ourselves that...) might be upset he didn't do more to prevent it. And, to be fair, there is a real risk of that. If the current snowbirds got new planes, even if they are tied to the new jet trainers, it's conceivable that tradition and the massive branded hangers at 15 wing Moose Jaw might keep them here. But they are shuffling around training programs, the grobes are coming to moose jaw from portage, the hawks are beinf scrapped (and wasn't that a boondoggle), so its entirely possible that FFLIT will go somewhere else. If the snow birds are flying, and FFLIT goes elsewhere, and the snowbirds transition to whatever FFLIT ends up flying, then it would only make sense that the snowbirds base would follow... A lot of ifs, but I bet thats where this is coming from.
Personally, I would LOVE to see the snowbirds in Gripens, that would be a step up on so many levels... But regardless of what they end up flying, I want them to be safe in the meantime. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that any publicity is good publicity, and I don't want anymore deaths associated with the snowbirds. Which is probably why I take such exception to Tolme raising a stink about (Moose Jaw) loosing the snowbirds. Because he has jumped to the conclusion that there isn't any reason that could be good enough to cancel or pause the program.